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	<title>Comments on: Subprime Capitalism</title>
	<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/</link>
	<description>Just When You Thought it was Safe to Take Politics Seriously Again</description>
	<pubDate>Mon,  6 Oct 2008 18:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.1</generator>

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		<title>by: pdxnag</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51895</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 23:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51895</guid>
					<description>Bob K,

Option 4

18 USC 1014

Let the prices of homes return to what they would have been had the funny lending terms not been used to artificially inflate the valuations of collateral held by banks.

The deceived borrows get to walk and the banks get to make corrections to the valuation of the collateral for loans they knew would transition into non-performing loans.

The sellers get their house back, and have to return their receipts of cash (their routinely untaxed capital gains).

Could anyone really object to the restoration of a natural equilibria between private wages and home values, in the interest of affordability? The cost of maintaining an artificial price support system for homes is higher than the alternatives.

The public cost would be the prosecution of 10s of thousands of folks who violated this code provision. It is cheaper, I suppose, to just grant the so-called professionals a blanket pardon. 

DIANE's comment is on the right track.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob K,</p>
<p>Option 4</p>
<p>18 USC 1014</p>
<p>Let the prices of homes return to what they would have been had the funny lending terms not been used to artificially inflate the valuations of collateral held by banks.</p>
<p>The deceived borrows get to walk and the banks get to make corrections to the valuation of the collateral for loans they knew would transition into non-performing loans.</p>
<p>The sellers get their house back, and have to return their receipts of cash (their routinely untaxed capital gains).</p>
<p>Could anyone really object to the restoration of a natural equilibria between private wages and home values, in the interest of affordability? The cost of maintaining an artificial price support system for homes is higher than the alternatives.</p>
<p>The public cost would be the prosecution of 10s of thousands of folks who violated this code provision. It is cheaper, I suppose, to just grant the so-called professionals a blanket pardon. </p>
<p>DIANE&#8217;s comment is on the right track.
</p>
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		<title>by: Paul in NJ</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51864</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 19:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51864</guid>
					<description>Howzabout a little perspective, people? The number of actual subprime 'victims' (and I use that word advisedly) is relatively small compared to the overall subprime market; only some 15% of subprime borrowers are in trouble. The numbers are out there, but it's politically convenient not to noise it around because...

This one-size-fits-all 'solution' (also used advisedly) can't help but also bail out the crowd who *knowingly* got in over their heads -- they're known as speculators and flippers (including those charming rogues on HGTV's &quot;Flip This House&quot;). Those of us who bought a house we could afford, and who play by the rules, have every right to decry a bailout. 

ALL THAT SAID -- Some of you may not like what John the mortgage broker says, but he's right: investors who bought the investment paper backed by these loans did so under certain guidelines that specified a rate of return for them. Now, Uncle Sam's gonna yank the rug out; leaving THEM holding the bag. So... d'you suppose those investors will rush to buy paper the next time, knowing they might again be forced to lose money? If they don't, lenders won't have the cash flow to make more mortgages. It's called &quot;liquidity,&quot; and without it -- well, we're seeing NOW what happens when there's a liquidity crunch. It'll get worse. Much worse.

Unless someone's gonna investigate every single borrower to determine whether they're 'worthy' of a bailout (with the same competence as, say, Social Security? DMV?) there's really no good way out of this mess -- only less-bad ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howzabout a little perspective, people? The number of actual subprime &#8216;victims&#8217; (and I use that word advisedly) is relatively small compared to the overall subprime market; only some 15% of subprime borrowers are in trouble. The numbers are out there, but it&#8217;s politically convenient not to noise it around because&#8230;</p>
<p>This one-size-fits-all &#8217;solution&#8217; (also used advisedly) can&#8217;t help but also bail out the crowd who *knowingly* got in over their heads &#8212; they&#8217;re known as speculators and flippers (including those charming rogues on HGTV&#8217;s &#8220;Flip This House&#8221;). Those of us who bought a house we could afford, and who play by the rules, have every right to decry a bailout. </p>
<p>ALL THAT SAID &#8212; Some of you may not like what John the mortgage broker says, but he&#8217;s right: investors who bought the investment paper backed by these loans did so under certain guidelines that specified a rate of return for them. Now, Uncle Sam&#8217;s gonna yank the rug out; leaving THEM holding the bag. So&#8230; d&#8217;you suppose those investors will rush to buy paper the next time, knowing they might again be forced to lose money? If they don&#8217;t, lenders won&#8217;t have the cash flow to make more mortgages. It&#8217;s called &#8220;liquidity,&#8221; and without it &#8212; well, we&#8217;re seeing NOW what happens when there&#8217;s a liquidity crunch. It&#8217;ll get worse. Much worse.</p>
<p>Unless someone&#8217;s gonna investigate every single borrower to determine whether they&#8217;re &#8216;worthy&#8217; of a bailout (with the same competence as, say, Social Security? DMV?) there&#8217;s really no good way out of this mess &#8212; only less-bad ones.
</p>
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		<title>by: DIANE</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51839</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 15:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51839</guid>
					<description>While not  favoring any bailout,  here in NYC at least a few criminal prosecutions may be in order. Many first time home buyers were more or less conned  by a tag team of realestate agent, home inspector, mortgage broker and lawyer.   It became a reverse game.  As opposed to potential buyers trying to convice the mortgage broker they could swing the payments the mortgage brokers were selling the buyers on the idea they could.  Cost estimates would be created for open houses showing the &quot;affordability&quot;  these fairytale documents would grossly underestimate heating/electric costs. While some buyers entered into these arrangements with open eyes,  quite a few  were conned.  How mortagage brokers could issue loans that buyers would clearly never be able to repay and then sell them off as just risky investments seems to cross the line into criminal behavior. Perhaps instead of talking bailout, we should be talking lock-up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While not  favoring any bailout,  here in NYC at least a few criminal prosecutions may be in order. Many first time home buyers were more or less conned  by a tag team of realestate agent, home inspector, mortgage broker and lawyer.   It became a reverse game.  As opposed to potential buyers trying to convice the mortgage broker they could swing the payments the mortgage brokers were selling the buyers on the idea they could.  Cost estimates would be created for open houses showing the &#8220;affordability&#8221;  these fairytale documents would grossly underestimate heating/electric costs. While some buyers entered into these arrangements with open eyes,  quite a few  were conned.  How mortagage brokers could issue loans that buyers would clearly never be able to repay and then sell them off as just risky investments seems to cross the line into criminal behavior. Perhaps instead of talking bailout, we should be talking lock-up.
</p>
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		<title>by: Gadflytothegadflies</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51817</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 12:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51817</guid>
					<description>Kip Watson: Twenty years ago I might have agreed with you. But now I realize that there is often a hidden class element to this sort of thing that I didn't notice before. Specifically, when one white -- I'm assuming that you're white -- calls another white a racist, it seems that more often than not the former is upper class and the latter is lower class. The people you condemn as bigots seem more interested in protecting their own money than in bashing &quot;dumb n1ggers,&quot; as you put it. Maybe you're rich and you don't have to worry about losing a lot, but the rest of us do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kip Watson: Twenty years ago I might have agreed with you. But now I realize that there is often a hidden class element to this sort of thing that I didn&#8217;t notice before. Specifically, when one white &#8212; I&#8217;m assuming that you&#8217;re white &#8212; calls another white a racist, it seems that more often than not the former is upper class and the latter is lower class. The people you condemn as bigots seem more interested in protecting their own money than in bashing &#8220;dumb n1ggers,&#8221; as you put it. Maybe you&#8217;re rich and you don&#8217;t have to worry about losing a lot, but the rest of us do.
</p>
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		<title>by: edh</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51789</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51789</guid>
					<description>John the mortgage broker:

Sounds like you brokered your fair share of sub-primes in your day?

Now you foresee &quot;catastrophe&quot; and &quot;stampede&quot;  because you're worried Wall Street will no longer buy the garbage guys like you bundled and sold to them a few short years ago?  Because nobody can get blood from a stone.

Please.  You sound angrier at the borrowers who agree to continue their payments rather than the ones who would simply walk away in foreclosure. The debt holders here are doing this only because they now know that they should be so lucky as to receive the entry rates on these loans rather than foreclose.  

The only disappointment here is that the middlemen who've already made their money by tying a bow on these shakey loans won't face any of the cost.  As if getting away with that weren't enough, listen to them now whine about the dried-up future opportunty to pull the same scam, which is the necessary market corrective.  Classic &quot;Glengary Glen Ross&quot; logic.

As they used to say, man, you're part of the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John the mortgage broker:</p>
<p>Sounds like you brokered your fair share of sub-primes in your day?</p>
<p>Now you foresee &#8220;catastrophe&#8221; and &#8220;stampede&#8221;  because you&#8217;re worried Wall Street will no longer buy the garbage guys like you bundled and sold to them a few short years ago?  Because nobody can get blood from a stone.</p>
<p>Please.  You sound angrier at the borrowers who agree to continue their payments rather than the ones who would simply walk away in foreclosure. The debt holders here are doing this only because they now know that they should be so lucky as to receive the entry rates on these loans rather than foreclose.  </p>
<p>The only disappointment here is that the middlemen who&#8217;ve already made their money by tying a bow on these shakey loans won&#8217;t face any of the cost.  As if getting away with that weren&#8217;t enough, listen to them now whine about the dried-up future opportunty to pull the same scam, which is the necessary market corrective.  Classic &#8220;Glengary Glen Ross&#8221; logic.</p>
<p>As they used to say, man, you&#8217;re part of the problem.
</p>
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		<title>by: labrandston</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51754</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 03:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51754</guid>
					<description>Here it is folks, in black and white:  ARM = Adjustable rate mortgage, yes you read correctly,
 ADJUSTABLE !  You sign for it, you live with it and the consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here it is folks, in black and white:  ARM = Adjustable rate mortgage, yes you read correctly,<br />
 ADJUSTABLE !  You sign for it, you live with it and the consequences.
</p>
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		<title>by: Fat Man</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51746</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 01:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51746</guid>
					<description>&quot;the working class Sephardic section of McLean, VA,&quot;

WTF?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the working class Sephardic section of McLean, VA,&#8221;</p>
<p>WTF?
</p>
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		<title>by: Jack</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51725</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51725</guid>
					<description>I haven't yet come across a clear description of what this agreement entails. If the federal government is offering guarantees or compensatory incentives, these are effectively subsidies. If there are threats to penalize mortgage lenders who attempt to adjust rates, future rates will be set with this risk in mind. There's no free lunch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t yet come across a clear description of what this agreement entails. If the federal government is offering guarantees or compensatory incentives, these are effectively subsidies. If there are threats to penalize mortgage lenders who attempt to adjust rates, future rates will be set with this risk in mind. There&#8217;s no free lunch.
</p>
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		<title>by: Kip Watson</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51722</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51722</guid>
					<description>The scorn and bigotry that comes through this post and comments is sickening. 

Reading between the lines, you think the dumb n1ggers got what they deserved and should be kept in their place like the other serfs, is that right?

No wonder Jesse Jackson hates you guys.

&quot;Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The scorn and bigotry that comes through this post and comments is sickening. </p>
<p>Reading between the lines, you think the dumb n1ggers got what they deserved and should be kept in their place like the other serfs, is that right?</p>
<p>No wonder Jesse Jackson hates you guys.</p>
<p>&#8220;Therefore, Jew,<br />
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,<br />
That, in the course of justice, none of us<br />
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;<br />
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render<br />
The deeds of mercy.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: Bob K</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51713</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51713</guid>
					<description>People should remember that the housing situation was precipitated by a government action, specifically the extremely low interest rates in 2002-2004.  We all benefited from the economic buoyancy that it created, but nobody claims that we benefited at the taxpayers' expense.  But, indirectly, we all did.  So get over it.  

Keep the banks open, and don't repeat 1929-1932.  Otherwise, we'll end up with a repeat of 1932-1936.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People should remember that the housing situation was precipitated by a government action, specifically the extremely low interest rates in 2002-2004.  We all benefited from the economic buoyancy that it created, but nobody claims that we benefited at the taxpayers&#8217; expense.  But, indirectly, we all did.  So get over it.  </p>
<p>Keep the banks open, and don&#8217;t repeat 1929-1932.  Otherwise, we&#8217;ll end up with a repeat of 1932-1936.
</p>
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		<title>by: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51712</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51712</guid>
					<description>There's nothing in the article that outright indicates the government's giving a transfer to anyone.  Is meeting with union officials to try and get them to stop striking a &quot;bailout&quot; for management?  It could well be that the government is bailing people out, but your source doesn't really say anything that proves it.  One of the few Presidential functions even die-hard libertarians will agree with the rest of us on is statesmanship and diplomacy: for all we know from that article, the sum total of the White House position is &quot;we won't bail you out if you go under, so you need to start making some tough choices, guys.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s nothing in the article that outright indicates the government&#8217;s giving a transfer to anyone.  Is meeting with union officials to try and get them to stop striking a &#8220;bailout&#8221; for management?  It could well be that the government is bailing people out, but your source doesn&#8217;t really say anything that proves it.  One of the few Presidential functions even die-hard libertarians will agree with the rest of us on is statesmanship and diplomacy: for all we know from that article, the sum total of the White House position is &#8220;we won&#8217;t bail you out if you go under, so you need to start making some tough choices, guys.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: John</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51711</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51711</guid>
					<description>Speaking as a mortgage broker, I can assure you this is going to be a catastrophe.  First of all, I've seen hundreds of subprime credit reports.  Subprime people love not paying their bills; they love the notion of getting something for nothing.  This policy will create an absolute *stampede* of deadbeats running to get in line for their free 5 years of fixed rates, courtesy of Wall Street.

The second stampede, however, will be even worse, as Wall Street investors completely abandon the Collateralized Debt Obligation market.  This legislation is essentially pulling the stopper and allowing whatever liquidity is left in the market to run down the drain.  Borrowing costs will go up for everyone, thanks to the deadbeats and their government benefactors.

And you thought Republicans believed in free market forces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking as a mortgage broker, I can assure you this is going to be a catastrophe.  First of all, I&#8217;ve seen hundreds of subprime credit reports.  Subprime people love not paying their bills; they love the notion of getting something for nothing.  This policy will create an absolute *stampede* of deadbeats running to get in line for their free 5 years of fixed rates, courtesy of Wall Street.</p>
<p>The second stampede, however, will be even worse, as Wall Street investors completely abandon the Collateralized Debt Obligation market.  This legislation is essentially pulling the stopper and allowing whatever liquidity is left in the market to run down the drain.  Borrowing costs will go up for everyone, thanks to the deadbeats and their government benefactors.</p>
<p>And you thought Republicans believed in free market forces.
</p>
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		<title>by: Bearster</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51710</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51710</guid>
					<description>Remember that when the gov't bails someone out, they take money from the rest of us by force.  This punishes us for our prudence and care and rewards them for their risk-taking.

If you think past the range of the moment, you'll realize why this will lead to the next even-bigger crisis.

If you think in principles, you will realize why taking money from people by force is wrong, and that the ends don't justify the means no matter how needy the recipient is!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember that when the gov&#8217;t bails someone out, they take money from the rest of us by force.  This punishes us for our prudence and care and rewards them for their risk-taking.</p>
<p>If you think past the range of the moment, you&#8217;ll realize why this will lead to the next even-bigger crisis.</p>
<p>If you think in principles, you will realize why taking money from people by force is wrong, and that the ends don&#8217;t justify the means no matter how needy the recipient is!
</p>
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		<title>by: richarda</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51709</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51709</guid>
					<description>Demographicly, as described this will be largely another affirmative action program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Demographicly, as described this will be largely another affirmative action program.
</p>
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		<title>by: edh</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51704</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51704</guid>
					<description>Is it really a &quot;government bail-out&quot; or are lenders voluntarily agreeing to cap rate increases so as to preserve existing cash-flows rather than incur negative cash flows from foreclosures?

The lenders speculated too.  

Disturbingly, is the program limited only to those with &quot;spotty&quot; credit histories?  How is that line drawn?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it really a &#8220;government bail-out&#8221; or are lenders voluntarily agreeing to cap rate increases so as to preserve existing cash-flows rather than incur negative cash flows from foreclosures?</p>
<p>The lenders speculated too.  </p>
<p>Disturbingly, is the program limited only to those with &#8220;spotty&#8221; credit histories?  How is that line drawn?
</p>
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		<title>by: Hogarth</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51703</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:26:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51703</guid>
					<description>Aw, what the hell. I'm already supporting half the damn country anyway.  Might as well subsidize their nice big house too.  Are all of them good with HD TVs and big SUVs, or should I kick in for those as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aw, what the hell. I&#8217;m already supporting half the damn country anyway.  Might as well subsidize their nice big house too.  Are all of them good with HD TVs and big SUVs, or should I kick in for those as well?
</p>
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		<title>by: Bob K</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51701</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51701</guid>
					<description>it all seems to be against free market principles, but the situation is what it is.  People did not suddenly become greedy en masse in 2003-2005, there were economic conditions that encouraged low-income people to take out mortgages at the peak of the housing market.

But given the situation the choices are:

1 - Bail out the homeowners, and reduce the losses to the banks.

2 - Don't bail out the homeowners, but bail out the banks who are stuck with the mortgages.

or 

3 - Don't bail out the homeowners OR the banks, and let homeowners go bankrupt and let the banks fail.

Of those three, option 1 seems to the only reasonable choice.  If you don't do that, Option 2 becomes a bailout for Wall Street.  Option 3 would be more costly to Main Street than either of 1 or 2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it all seems to be against free market principles, but the situation is what it is.  People did not suddenly become greedy en masse in 2003-2005, there were economic conditions that encouraged low-income people to take out mortgages at the peak of the housing market.</p>
<p>But given the situation the choices are:</p>
<p>1 - Bail out the homeowners, and reduce the losses to the banks.</p>
<p>2 - Don&#8217;t bail out the homeowners, but bail out the banks who are stuck with the mortgages.</p>
<p>or </p>
<p>3 - Don&#8217;t bail out the homeowners OR the banks, and let homeowners go bankrupt and let the banks fail.</p>
<p>Of those three, option 1 seems to the only reasonable choice.  If you don&#8217;t do that, Option 2 becomes a bailout for Wall Street.  Option 3 would be more costly to Main Street than either of 1 or 2.
</p>
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		<title>by: DADvocate</title>
		<link>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51667</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.extrememortman.com/politics/subprime-capitalism/#comment-51667</guid>
					<description>I was &lt;strike&gt;smart&lt;/strike&gt; dumb enough to get a fixed rate loan on a cheap house in the country that I could afford. Damn! I want in on this action but it appears I was too fiscally responsible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was <strike>smart</strike> dumb enough to get a fixed rate loan on a cheap house in the country that I could afford. Damn! I want in on this action but it appears I was too fiscally responsible.
</p>
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